So if you started a new church...

[moonweb]

When I say coming to church, I mean coming to the large group gathering of believers. This is where my problem lies. When we see someone who is having life issues, we typically say "they need to be in church" when what the response should be is "they really need Jesus". The two are drastically different. If God puts someone in my path who needs Jesus, then as a member of the body of Christ, here I am. At the same time, I understand and hold fast to the strength of the body working together.

Time for me to change from so much philosophy in this thread to how would it actually look. Next post coming later.

[don the techtacular]

Every church is a large group of believers, and by defenition they have Jesus. Whether they are close to Him or not varies. I know it does in my own life, so the same is most likely true with a large percentage of all churches. Seems to me that the real need is "discipling" people in that relationship with Jesus. Without a doubt there are people in every church who don't know Jesus and these people need reaching just as bad. These are two different types of people and can't be ministered to in the same way, which falls to small group/Sunday School, leadership, and lay leaders (if you have any). To me discipling if you will is just like raising a child. There are stages along the way. First they need spoon feeding, then you slowly give them the power to feed themselves until one day they are self sufficent. Once you have them to a self sufficient status then you mentor them through life challenges, bending over backwards to help them at a moments notice, just like a parent would for a child - true community. I must say that I have seen 2 instances of what I consider true community in my church this past week, and both were like a breath of Holy Spirit fresh air for me when I heard the prospective situations. I hope it continues.

[moonweb]

please share. what are you seeing happen?

[Melanie Grant]

Hey guys!

I sense frustration. Been there. I'm still there at times.

Bryan, you said, "The only reference I know of for marginal or seeking people coming to church is for them to see our authentic worship of God and be drawn to Him by that." That's where it has to start. With us, being real, transparent, genuine. Something we churchgoers aren't very good at. It has to start with our giving over every part of our lives to His control, because we love him and therefore obey his commandments. I believe that when we are committed to Christlikeness, they won't be able to escape being drawn to Him. If we are modeling the abundant life that He promises, how can they not want that?! It's what we all really want, whether we know it or not.

As for discipleship, I will reference the book I, and a lot of other people in our church, have been reading, Choose the Life, by Bill Hull. He says that our idea of discipleship has become getting them into the church and down to the altar. As you alluded to, it's a numbers game. We measure success by how many people we can get saved and baptised. What we don't do is the part of the Great Commission that you emphasized-- teaching them to obey everything He has commanded. We have made transformation optional, separate from salvation, and that's not what the Bible teaches it should be. He's not saying that works are necessary for salvation. He's saying that if anyone will come after Christ, they have to be willing to be true disciples. God never said obedience was optional! We are supposed to be transformed by a lifelong process of laying down our lives for Him. Unfortunately, we can't teach others what we don't know or are not willing to commit to ourselves, so the cycle continues. Ultimately, we should be teaching them until they are ready to go out into the world and make their own disciples. That's where the outreach comes in. What it's supposed to look like. The way Jesus did it. But it doesn't look like that. And Mr. Hull asks, why would we want to bring others into something that isn't working, like discipleship the way the church is doing it?

Still, I think there's hope! SOME people are getting it! If the few start living the life as Christ intends for us to live it, things have to start happening. We don't need a church to be obedient to His call ourselves. Yes, we need accountability, but this thread is evidence that there are others who are ready to commit totally who would encourage us on our journeys. There are even more out there. I feel like God is about to move. Something's happening. I can't wait!! When the rest of the church sees God working through a few, that will do more to turn things around than all the programs in the world. Hang in there, and don't be discouraged. He's overcome the world! He can handle the church!

I'm praying for you,
Mel

[moonweb]

Wow Mel. No wonder you're my second favorite woman in the whole world. It's amazing how God has been redirecting my frustration lately and reminding me that He is in control and that the things He is putting on my heart are there for a reason. Thanx for your obedience to allow God to continue to speak to me thru you.

[Melanie Grant]

Hi!

You're welcome. I'm glad if my babbling is helpful sometimes! I was thinking back to a conversation we had a long time ago, when we were expecting big changes at our church. I remember saying something about how change was painful and that there would be people who would have difficulty embracing the changes that were going to be made. Funny, at that time, I didn't imagine that almost everybody would "transition" so easily and we would be the ones having difficulty accepting the "change"! More proof that His ways and thoughts are not ours! I just have to keep remembering that He's still the Isaiah 40 God, able to do more than I can ever ask or imagine, and equipping me with everything I need for life and godliness. With that in mind, I keep trying to focus on my logs and not everyone else's specks, but patience is not my strong suit! I want Him to hurry it up! And He keeps telling me that I should talk less and listen more! Something all who know me wish I would do! Keep on. I know He has plans for you.

Mel